Urijah Faber: "BJ Penn has a 90% chance of beating Slice"

[brutus]

Source ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

On the Big O & Dukes show on 106.7 WJFK today, WEC Featherweight Champion Urijah Faber was asked about BJ Penn's chances of defeating Kimbo Slice in a fight. Faber replied that Penn had a "90% chance" of defeating the EliteXC heavyweight, although one speculates Faber really feels the chances are much higher.

The Penn vs. Slice "fantasy match-up" is the product of UFC President Dana White's comment just prior to EliteXC's debut on CBS. White remarked that BJ Penn could defeat Slice in a MMA bout. The effort of White was to disparage Slice's talent level by suggesting a lightweight fighter in the UFC could defeat a heavyweight fighter in EliteXC (or at least Slice). Faber's corroboration merely adds fuel to the fire.

As for a potential bout with Norifumi Yamamoto, it's the same story: Faber wants it; there are no plans in the works to make it happen.

To DL the interview click the link.

I don't doubt it for one bit. BJ is a freak and Ferguson is a newb. BJ by submission.

[2mcgrath]

who in the world thought up a match like this lol.i think bj would beat him though

[neonatural]

I actually agree with him lol

[Warrior Of God]

That would be amazing....finally Kimbo would be put out there and people would know he isn't all that.....Gettum BJ

[OMNIpotus]

Such animosity against one guy trying to make it in the world of MMA. Is there one person that you guys think BJ wouldn't beat? While we're at it, let's have Kimbo take on Fedor. That'll prove how much he sucks and how green he is!

[brutus]

Such animosity against one guy trying to make it in the world of MMA. Is there one person that you guys think BJ wouldn't beat? While we're at it, let's have Kimbo take on Fedor. That'll prove how much he sucks and how green he is!

I really don't think people have a problem with Ferguson I do think, however, that people are unhappy with the way people like Jared Shaw portrays him. Shaw says Ferg is the best striker on the planet and that no one can stand with him. For a guy who used to be a thug, yes he was a thug, to come in and have people saying that he is the badddest man on the planet is ridiculous.
He is capable of being a good MMA fighter, IMO, but at this point, I don't think Kevin Ferguson can spell Jiu-Jitsu let alone sub someone. he needs to get better and fast if he doesn't wanna face such scrutiny. Even if he does improve his game in a big way there will still be haters.

BTW, penns game is so much futher advanced than Ferguson's that it is quite possible that Kevin would be completely confused during a fight with Penn. Penn has fought machida at 205 so i dont think that it would be stretch to say that bj could fight ferguson, especially with experience and talent on the side of penn.

[LionHeartWarchild]

This is just stupid. I know its "In" to hate on Slice but its actually very ignorant and so is this topic. BJ would not beat Slice on pure size and strength alone. If Slice was able to land a few good shots on Penn, pack it up its all over.

[brutus]

This is just stupid. I know its "In" to hate on Slice but its actually very ignorant and so is this topic. BJ would not beat Slice on pure size and strength alone. If Slice was able to land a few good shots on Penn, pack it up its all over.

hence the 90% chance that Faber spoke of. I really only see one post in this thread that contains someone "hating" on ferguson so I'm not sure where your comment about ignorance comes in to play. I also do not see how this topic is ignorant. A fighter gave his opinion and some guys agreed with it, how is that ignorant? BTW, size and strenth gets you no where when your are getting choked. try not to fly off the handle so quickly about ferguson, I am actually a fan due to the fact that he likes to KO people, but Im not gonna sit here and say that BJ wouldn't sub him.

Calling people's opinions stupid isn't always the greatest idea. try to share your feelings with explination and fact, not name calling.

[OMNIpotus]

I really don't think people have a problem with Ferguson I do think, however, that people are unhappy with the way people like Jared Shaw portrays him. Shaw says Ferg is the best striker on the planet and that no one can stand with him.

Sounds like you need to see BJ fight Shaw then.

[LionHeartWarchild]

You're the one flying off the handle Brutus, I wasn't attacking you for sharing this, I'm just saying the whole premise of Penn vs. Slice is retarded.

IMO, it doesn't matter that Penn has more experienced or is a better overall fighter than Slice, when you're a LW and you're put into the cage with a guy who drastically outweighs you and has punching power, its pretty much a 90% chance you're going to lose not the other way around. Kimbo's been punched by bigger stronger guys so nothing that Penn throws at him is going to be that much of a threat. As far as Slice being submitted, I'd love to see Penn try and get Slice to the ground. People just say "Penn could beat Slice" because they're suggesting that he's so bad someone so small could dispose of him...

[brutus]

You're the one flying off the handle Brutus, I wasn't attacking you for sharing this, I'm just saying the whole premise of Penn vs. Slice is retarded.

IMO, it doesn't matter that Penn has more experienced or is a better overall fighter than Slice, when you're a LW and you're put into the cage with a guy who drastically outweighs you and has punching power, its pretty much a 90% chance you're going to lose not the other way around. Kimbo's been punched by bigger stronger guys so nothing that Penn throws at him is going to be that much of a threat. As far as Slice being submitted, I'd love to see Penn try and get Slice to the ground. People just say "Penn could beat Slice" because they're suggesting that he's so bad someone so small could dispose of him...

I dont believe i was flying off the handle at all. I was simply stating my opinion along with fact after your response to other members opinions on the matter. I'm not going to discuss this any further, i've stated my OPINION and you have given yours. lets just agree to disagree, and hope the fight actually one day happens.

[LionHeartWarchild]

See, you're constantly on the defensive...I'm just trying to say , "People get real, look at the fight realisticaly." not attack people...

[keithpas]

I remember Royce Gracie submitting fighters that were much much bigger and much stronger than he was and I suspect that the same would happen if Kimbo were to ever fight BJ. That having been said this fight is never going to happen so alot of speculation is a waste of time.

[LionHeartWarchild]

Yes, the fight is never going to happen, yes Royce submitted guys vastly bigger than himself but that's Royce not Penn. While Penn's BJJ might be good it ain't what Royce's was in his prime. I stick by what I've said, this is a stupid match-up...

[Warrior Of God]

I really don't think people have a problem with Ferguson I do think, however, that people are unhappy with the way people like Jared Shaw portrays him. Shaw says Ferg is the best striker on the planet and that no one can stand with him. For a guy who used to be a thug, yes he was a thug, to come in and have people saying that he is the badddest man on the planet is ridiculous. .


I agree....They are hyping him up WAY to much!

Secondly.....You can't be just a striker in MMA.....Trust me I love the striking aspect but you have to be well rounded in everything.

[LionHeartWarchild]

If people simply had a problem with the way he's being portrayed and not the man himself than why the **** do people jump at every chance they get to bash the guy??? That's just a pure cop out. People have a problem with him but won't admit it. Wow, for some people ignorance surely is bliss...

[brutus]

If people simply had a problem with the way he's being portrayed and not the man himself than why the **** do people jump at every chance they get to bash the guy??? That's just a pure cop out. People have a problem with him but won't admit it. Wow, for some people ignorance surely is bliss...

Again, i dont see anyone really hatin the guy, maybe 1 post. most are just stating the facts. there is a big difference between saying kimbo sucks as a fighter and suggesting that he is not as talented as others, even in a lower weight class.

Dang, I said i wasn't gonna discuss this anymore. oh well.

[keithpas]

If people simply had a problem with the way he's being portrayed and not the man himself than why the **** do people jump at every chance they get to bash the guy??? That's just a pure cop out. People have a problem with him but won't admit it. Wow, for some people ignorance surely is bliss...

Comparing fighters from different times in mma is not fair. Gracie had no one, and I mean no one, to challenge him on the ground except Shamrock and that was not much of a challenge. That is not a knock Gracie, the guy is legend, it is just the way things were then. Dismissing my comments based on a comparison that could never be quantified or proven puts you in the position of adopting of primary criticism of this thread. Kimbo and Penn will never fight but it is not at all unreasonable to think that either would win based on their respective talents.

[LionHeartWarchild]

^???. The point, is most are stating facts...just not realistic ones. If GSP's 170lbs. frame could take Penn down and hold him there for three 5 minute rounds I think its pretty safe to say Kimbo's HW frame could do the same thing. On the feet Penn would be at a major disadvantage as well. He wouldn't have the reach or power to do any significant damage to Kimbo and would probably be knocked out. In short, the percentage is more like a 90-95% chance that Kimbo would win with the last 5-10% being if Penn pulled something spectacular off.

[Warrior Of God]

haha them are some pretty wide %'s........GSP lives on a different world then Slice. GSP may be able to hold Penn down but you better believe that Penn would submit Kimbo with in the 1st round period.

[OMNIpotus]

If people simply had a problem with the way he's being portrayed and not the man himself than why the **** do people jump at every chance they get to bash the guy??? That's just a pure cop out. People have a problem with him but won't admit it. Wow, for some people ignorance surely is bliss...

I agree with what he is saying, but not how he is saying it. I have the same issue when people try to knock Brock Lesnar. It just doesn't seem fair to pick on someone who is part of a hype machine instead of hyping themselves, or hyping themselves more than any other fighter ever has in the history of televised fighting.

This example was just a hyperbole of another hyperbole.

You can dislike someone. You are more than entitled to dislike someone for no reason what-so-ever. Just don't try to logically explain that hate when you do.

I dislike Roger Huerta. I hope everytime he steps in to the ring that a loss is in his immediate future. Does that make sense or have anything to do with his skill? Nope. Not at all. I just dislike him. But you're not going to see me out there trying to say "Well, I don't like him 'cause everyone around him hypes him up and he was on the cover of SI." That's the only difference.

Again, I agree with what he's saying, just not how he's saying it.

There is no need to insult someone else's intelligence or fanhood for stating an opinion. You are doing exactly what you don't like about them knocking Kimbo.

[Warrior Of God]

fanhood for stating an opinion.

I am sorry this is completely off subject....But that made me think of the commercial where the 2 couples are out to dinner at a fancy resturant and the guy starts questioning his fan hood so the other guy tackles him.......anyone? lol


Sorry go on with the subject:horn:

[LionHeartWarchild]

Thankyou Omni, but I don't see what I'm doing is anything remotely like the ridiculous Kimbo hating...I'm just saying, let's be realistic, just probably in a more blunt way than most people would agree with because well, nothing seems to be getting through some of the thick heads around here. And yes, the Lesnar bashing pisses me off to no end as well. You know, the moderators should make a bar over here under rep power that's labeled "Intellegence" with "Increase" and "Decrease" buttons at the bottom of each person's post, some of you people would be at the "Braindead" level with all the simply stupid posts I've had to tedious task of replying to...

[OMNIpotus]

You can ignore. It works like a charm. Can't do it to mods though :)

[brutus]

Thankyou Omni, but I don't see what I'm doing is anything remotely like the ridiculous Kimbo hating...I'm just saying, let's be realistic, just probably in a more blunt way than most people would agree with because well, nothing seems to be getting through some of the thick heads around here. And yes, the Lesnar bashing pisses me off to no end as well. You know, the moderators should make a bar over here under rep power that's labeled "Intellegence" with "Increase" and "Decrease" buttons at the bottom of each person's post, some of you people would be at the "Braindead" level with all the simply stupid posts I've had to tedious task of replying to...

If they are stupid, as you say, please refrain from replying.

[Boo]

Yes, the fight is never going to happen, yes Royce submitted guys vastly bigger than himself but that's Royce not Penn. While Penn's BJJ might be good it ain't what Royce's was in his prime. I stick by what I've said, this is a stupid match-up...

I don't care for the fantasy matchup game, but I just can't let this comment go. Like most of you know, I don't like BJ Penn, but there is no denying the guys skill. Royce Gracie's BJJ does not even compare to BJ Penn's. I can't believe you even said that. I wish I still had the write up on Penn's accomplishments in BJJ so I could whip it out to prove how true it is.

Thinking that brute strength will topple skill every time completely tosses out the lessons learned by those watching this sport in the beginning. We learned very quickly that enough skill will flat out embarrass the biggest strongest opponent.

The man who honed BJJ into an art form was a skinny little lightweight. Skill beating size and strength was the whole premise of BJJ.


You know, the moderators should make a bar over here under rep power that's labeled "Intellegence" with "Increase" and "Decrease" buttons at the bottom of each person's post, some of you people would be at the "Braindead" level with all the simply stupid posts I've had to tedious task of replying to...

Disagree all you want. That's what forums are for, but this is uncalled for and insulting. You have already shown yourself capable of not lowering yourself to that.

[LionHeartWarchild]

Why can't you believe that I said that??? It doesn't compare to Royce's in his prime. While BJ may have great BJJ skills within the context of MMA, he's not a worldclass master who's developed his own unique system that's been embraced by students all over the world.

This is something that people fail to realize again and again. There are a lot of MMA fighters who have great BJJ skills but aren't on the level of someone like a Gracie, Garcia, or even a Crane. BJ's complete submission history pales in comparison to the work of any of these guys and categorizing him with them is just....

Being technical and having skill doesn't always work out. As a fan of MMA and submission grappling I know first hand that brute strength can prevail over skill, as its happened many times. I've seen wrestlers with little experience hold down blackbelts and have no trouble keeping them there. I've seen people with no grappling history at all use their shear size and power to hold blackbelts down. I don't need everyone on this forums approval to think that Kimbo would own BJ, because pretty much Royce is with me. Wasn't it he himself who said "A blackbelt can go into an MMA match and One punch, you're a brown belt etc, etc," let's see Penn pull off a submission after getting rocked on the feet and on his back while being pinned down. I stand by what I've said, every blunt an "insulting" thing I've said...

[Grabaka]

Didn't you guys know the bigger guy always wins? That's why Zuluzinho, Akebono and Giant Silva are the bestest eva!!!!!! =)

[brutus]

Why can't you believe that I said that??? It doesn't compare to Royce's in his prime. While BJ may have great BJJ skills within the context of MMA, he's not a worldclass master who's developed his own unique system that's been embraced by students all over the world.

This is something that people fail to realize again and again. There are a lot of MMA fighters who have great BJJ skills but aren't on the level of someone like a Gracie, Garcia, or even a Crane. BJ's complete submission history pales in comparison to the work of any of these guys and categorizing him with them is just....

Being technical and having skill doesn't always work out. As a fan of MMA and submission grappling I know first hand that brute strength can prevail over skill, as its happened many times. I've seen wrestlers with little experience hold down blackbelts and have no trouble keeping them there. I've seen people with no grappling history at all use their shear size and power to hold blackbelts down. I don't need everyone on this forums approval to think that Kimbo would own BJ, because pretty much Royce is with me. Wasn't it he himself who said "A blackbelt can go into an MMA match and One punch, you're a brown belt etc, etc," let's see Penn pull off a submission after getting rocked on the feet and on his back while being pinned down. I stand by what I've said, every blunt an "insulting" thing I've said...

Alright

Didn't you guys know the bigger guy always wins? That's why Zuluzinho, Akebono and Giant Silva are the bestest eva!!!!!! =)

I forgot.

[2mcgrath]

technique prevails over strength,most all the time

[LionHeartWarchild]

Not really...

[Warrior Of God]

technique prevails over strength,most all the time

Agreed!!

[NDshotokan]

...he's not a worldclass master who's developed his own unique system that's been embraced by students all over the world.

Royce didn't either... It was Helio. :-)

Being technical and having skill doesn't always work out.

True, nothing is guaranteed... But the beginnings of the UFC were predicated upon the fact that Technique and Skill DID trump strength and aggressiveness every time. This is evidenced by a famous Royce Gracie quote:
"A lot of people think, and made the comment, saying ”Well, the first UFCs was a big infomercial for Gracie Jiu Jitsu”. Yes, it was. But it was reality. There was no set-up over there."
That's true, he challenged all comers... And he beat them all. At least until better technique by Matt Hughes took him out. (15 years later)


I've seen people with no grappling history at all use their shear size and power to hold blackbelts down.

Sure, maybe Kung Fu blackbelts, but not anyone with real training...

And all you have to do is look at the Lesnar/Mir fight to see that Technique DOES prevail... almost always.

Hence I agree with the original post. BJ has a 90% chance to beat Kimbo.

[rivethead]

Preface: I don't hate Kimbo, I don't even think he was ever a thug; I think he's got great potential as an MMA fighter...not a champion, but an exciting fighter, particularly if he sticks with it under Bas.

Yes, the fight is never going to happen, yes Royce submitted guys vastly bigger than himself but that's Royce not Penn. While Penn's BJJ might be good it ain't what Royce's was in his prime. I stick by what I've said, this is a stupid match-up...

A few points: You are right; this is a stupid matchup. It was first brought up by Dana White, who is an idiot.

But even a stopped watch is right twice a day. White was right, Faber was right, Penn outpoints Kimbo 9 times out of 10.

Second, as Boo pointed out, if you actually think Penn's game isn't better than a "prime" Royce, you need to learn your history, son. Royce dominated the early UFC because the tourneys were specifically designed to allow him to win. The first UFC was a marketing plan to bring Helio's [not Royce's] fighting system to the masses. Royce has good BJJ, but he's not even the best in his "family."

Conversely, Penn is called the Prodigy because he earned his black belt in BJJ in under 4 years [under the Gracies], he was the first American to win the Mundials, and perhaps most importanly, he's not one dimensional...he's a far better striker than Royce [and better than Kimbo, actually]. And unlike Royce, he has no problem with getting hit.

^???. The point, is most are stating facts...just not realistic ones. If GSP's 170lbs. frame could take Penn down and hold him there for three 5 minute rounds I think its pretty safe to say Kimbo's HW frame could do the same thing. On the feet Penn would be at a major disadvantage as well. He wouldn't have the reach or power to do any significant damage to Kimbo and would probably be knocked out. In short, the percentage is more like a 90-95% chance that Kimbo would win with the last 5-10% being if Penn pulled something spectacular off.

Some more "facts" for you: GSP doesn't actually weigh 170; his ring weight is closer to 185 or 90. Second, I hope you aren't ignorant enought to actually try to compare Kimbo's grappling skills to GSP's. They aren't even on the same planet: GSP is a phenomenal grappler, Kimbo is not. Third, even as a phenomenal grappler, GSP didn't "take Penn down and hold him for 3 five minute rounds." He scored no takedowns at all until the second round, when Penn had started to gas.

Finally, Kimbo is a slow, plodding fighter. He has very heavy hands, but doesn't have clean striking and has horrible striking defense. He counts on a granite chin to outlast his opponents. He's also incredibly prone to blowing his cardio.

If the [admittedly foolish] fight were to occur, Penn wouldn't try to KO Kimbo...he'd fight him for points and wait till Kimbo was gassed before he makes any major moves. And please don't pretend Penn gasses easy...he's gassed in exactly two fights, against Uno and against GSP, and people overlook the fact that GSP was gassed by the third as well.

Why can't you believe that I said that??? It doesn't compare to Royce's in his prime. While BJ may have great BJJ skills within the context of MMA, he's not a worldclass master who's developed his own unique system that's been embraced by students all over the world.

This is something that people fail to realize again and again. There are a lot of MMA fighters who have great BJJ skills but aren't on the level of someone like a Gracie, Garcia, or even a Crane. BJ's complete submission history pales in comparison to the work of any of these guys and categorizing him with them is just....

Being technical and having skill doesn't always work out. As a fan of MMA and submission grappling I know first hand that brute strength can prevail over skill, as its happened many times. I've seen wrestlers with little experience hold down blackbelts and have no trouble keeping them there. I've seen people with no grappling history at all use their shear size and power to hold blackbelts down. I don't need everyone on this forums approval to think that Kimbo would own BJ, because pretty much Royce is with me. Wasn't it he himself who said "A blackbelt can go into an MMA match and One punch, you're a brown belt etc, etc," let's see Penn pull off a submission after getting rocked on the feet and on his back while being pinned down. I stand by what I've said, every blunt an "insulting" thing I've said...

Again, you're overstating Royce's MMA skills, and undervaluing Penn's. And I don't think I've ever actually seen Penn rocked standing. Ever.

I don't think Kimbo would even be able to land a punch...maybe, as Faber stated, he's got a 10% chance to land it; but I think Kimbo has even less chance to actually take him down.

But you are welcome to your opinion, even if it's built on sand.

rh

[OMNIpotus]

And all you have to do is look at the Lesnar/Mir fight to see that Technique DOES prevail... almost always.

Or the Lesnar/Herring fight to prove that... wait. NM. =)

[rivethead]

Or the Lesnar/Herring fight to prove that... wait. NM. =)

I'd actually say the fact that Lesnar couldn't finish a half-blind Herring actually does prove his point...not that I'd put Herring anywhere near Penn's skill level.

You could also look at Lesnar/Mir...[Mir is also nowhere near as skilled as Penn] and further illustrate it.

rh

[LionHeartWarchild]

Lesnar/Mir proves my point. Leanar is nowhere as skilled as Mir on the ground but had Mazz not made that call I think its pretty safe to say Mir would've been out. He was dominating on pure strength and power, not technique.

Same with Lesnar/Herring. Herring was just bullrushed and overwhelmed by a bigger stronger opponent. It didn't take much skill/technigue to lay on Heaths back for a whole 3 round but it worked. Heath claimed to be in the best shape of his career but it didn't help him in that fight.

RivetHead, yes GSP doesn't naturally weigh 170 but how is that going against what I've said??? I said Kimbo weighing more is an advantage which it would be. Secondly, I'm not comparing GSP's and Kimbo's grappling skills because laying in Penn's full guard the whole fight isn't grappling its laying in someones full guard. Kimbo could just as well lay in Penn's full guard all night. In fact, if Bas showed Kimbo how to do a crucifix Penn wouldn't be going anywhere and would be getting smashed in the face all the while. Penn's proved he can't escape that, look at his second fight with Hughes, if Hughes small frame could hold down Penn and punch him in the face I'm sure Kimbo's frame could.



I don't think I'm understating Penn's BJJ skill at all. I admitted that he's got great BJJ, but that he's not up there with a Marcelo Garcia or Maia etc, etc. If he fought either he'd lose IMO.

NDShotokan, I've held down guys with blackbelts in BJJ and other submission styles frequently, its really not that hard all you have to know is what they may be working for and how they could submit you so you can counter it.

Guys, I'm really not trying to be an *******, but I just don't see the logic in most of the posts I've come across and if I have, they pretty much only helped prove my point.

[Warrior Of God]

Lesnar/Mir proves my point. Leanar is nowhere as skilled as Mir on the ground but had Mazz not made that call I think its pretty safe to say Mir would've been out. He was dominating on pure strength and power, not technique.

Disagree........Mir would have finished him in some other fashion.....I am not even a big Mir fan but hands down Lesnar stood no chance.

[Palma Wrestler]

Yes, the fight is never going to happen, yes Royce submitted guys vastly bigger than himself but that's Royce not Penn. While Penn's BJJ might be good it ain't what Royce's was in his prime. I stick by what I've said, this is a stupid match-up...

You are calling people ignorant and you are claiming that Penn's Jiu-Jitsu isn't as good as Royce's in his prime? Lol, what could you possibly be basing this on? Royce never won a World Championship in Jiu-Jitsu, and he competed constantly in BJJ until he started fighting NHB.

And you are totally off your rocker to say Penn has no chance against Slice because of shear size and strength... I agree that if Kimbo landed a clean power punch that he could KO any light-weight, but Penn is one of the hardest fighters in all of MMA to land a clean shot on. Did you not watch his fight against Machida who was over 220 lbs in that fight? Were' talking about a fighter close to the same size as Kimbo that is way more technically advanced then Kimbo and could never land a clean shot on Penn through out the entire fight.

Penn could even go for a flying submission that is designed for a larger opponent like a flying arm-bar or a flying heal-hook.

I agree that a 90% chance in favor of Penn is very biased and unrealistic, but to say he has no chance is just as biased and unrealistic in the opposite direction.

if Bas showed Kimbo how to do a crucifix Penn wouldn't be going anywhere and would be getting smashed in the face all the while. Penn's proved he can't escape that, look at his second fight with Hughes, if Hughes small frame could hold down Penn and punch him in the face I'm sure Kimbo's frame could.


Lol, you do realize he seperated his rib at the end of the second round? All it proved was that Penn would rather try and fight injured that throw in the towel even when he should. You can't seriously think Hughes, Slice, anyone could pass Penn's guard when he is healthy.

I don't know where you are commin from with allot of you perspective on Penn, but I have to say you that you seem very biased against him.

Here is why I don't think Kimbo (or anyone really) can pass Penn's gaurd. No one has ever passed it in MMA, BJJ, and Judo beised when Hughes did it. There is a HW Black Belt named Garth Taylor who weights about 260 lbs. He is a legit sub-wrestler and BJJ fighter taking second at the Mundials the year before Penn won it. And he has spared with Penn allot and has never been able to Pass Penn's gaurd. If Garth Taylor can't pass his guard I don't see how someone with no BJJ skill could do it.

[Warrior Of God]

^Well put!!!

[LionHeartWarchild]

Did I say he had absolutely no chance??? No, I said I'd heavily be leaning more towards Slice winning though. Maybe you should look back at my prior comments before you start assuming things. For the record, Mir wouldn't have won if Mazzagatti hadn't interupted, a couple more punches and he would've been out. I have a biased??? Maybe you haven't been looking at some of the other comments on here that a CLEARLY biased against Kimbo and aside from that, no matter how much of a prick I think Penn can be he's still in my top P4P. A flying armbar??? A flying heal hook??? When the **** was the last time Penn used any of those??? Hmmmmm.... we can imagine he'd do that all we want but until I've seen him even attempt it I'm rulling it out. Penn's BJJ is not Royce's in his prime. you bring up the Machida fight, if that had been Royce in his prime he would've been able to get Machida on the ground in spectacular fashion and probably come close to submitting him if not submitting him. As far as your whole little "Penn's gaurd has never been passed" spiel, so what??? Bigger guys don't need to pass a smaller mans guard to do damage, they can simply sit in full/half guard and punch your face in. I'm the biggest fan of Kid Yamamoto but even I know how to look at a fight realisticaly. If someone were to put him up against Lesnar I'd have no problem admitting that he most likely wouldn't come out on top. Its my ability to leave my bias on the wayside and look at a fight realisticaly that makes me differ from the majority people posting in this thread. Call me what you will, but biased is definitely not a characteristic that fits...

[Palma Wrestler]

Did I say he had absolutely no chance??? No, I said I'd heavily be leaning more towards Slice winning though. Maybe you should look back at my prior comments before you start assuming things..

This what you had to say about the out come of this scenario:

BJ would not beat Slice on pure size and strength alone..

What kind of chance are you giving him then? If you were giving him an chance then maybe you should have said "BJ would probably not beat Slice"

For the record, Mir wouldn't have won if Mazzagatti hadn't interupted, a couple more punches and he would've been out.

What does Mir have to do with Kimbo or BJ Penn?

Maybe you haven't been looking at some of the other comments on here that a CLEARLY biased against Kimbo

That really has nothing to do with you being biased against Penn, now does it?

and aside from that, no matter how much of a prick I think Penn can be he's still in my top P4P.

Well, here is your biased right here... whether or not you admit that Penn is a top p4p fighter doesn't mean you aren't being biased against him. What is your top 10 p4p list btw?

A flying armbar??? A flying heal hook??? When the **** was the last time Penn used any of those??? Hmmmmm.... we can imagine he'd do that all we want but until I've seen him even attempt it I'm rulling it out..

When has Penn ever faced an opponent he could use them on? And if you are ruling out imagining scenarios that haven't happened then you might want to rule out the possibility of a fighter with literally no BJJ skill maintaing a crusifix after passing the gaurd of a world class grappler.

Penn's BJJ is not Royce's in his prime.

Again, what are you basing this on? Royce has never won a world championship... Penn has. Royce really never did anything substantial in fighting besides winning old UFCs against opponents who didn't even know what BJJ is.

I don't agree with most of what you are saying, but this is an indisputable fact: Penn is much better the Royce Gracie ever was at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

you bring up the Machida fight, if that had been Royce in his prime he would've been able to get Machida on the ground in spectacular fashion and probably come close to submitting him if not submitting him.

Lol, when have you ever seen Royce take down a better wrestler then him in any fashion... I'll just quote you on this one "we can imagine he'd do that all we want but until I've seen him even attempt it I'm rulling it out.."



As far as your whole little "Penn's gaurd has never been passed" spiel, so what??? Bigger guys don't need to pass a smaller mans guard to do damage, they can simply sit in full/half guard and punch your face in.

Little? Don't get rude man... you can't handle me if you get rude with me.

I agree that bigger guys can do damage with in a smaller fighter's guard, but I was writing in response to you saying that Kimbo could get Penn in a crusafix, which would require passing Penn's guard. Get it?

I'm the biggest fan of Kid Yamamoto but even I know how to look at a fight realisticaly. If someone were to put him up against Lesnar I'd have no problem admitting that he most likely wouldn't come out on top.

What kind of comparison is this? You are picking a fighter that isn't as good as Penn and smaller as well against a fighter that is better then Kimbo and bigger? Fedor vs. Hong is a much better comparison and I think we all know how that fight ended.

Its my ability to leave my bias on the wayside and look at a fight realisticaly that makes me differ from the majority people posting in this thread. Call me what you will, but biased is definitely not a characteristic that fits...

What is the point of bringing up that Maia and Marcelo are better then Penn then? It has nothing to do with discusion at hand and is only used as a means to degrade Penn's talent for no good reason at all. I will call you what I see fit and that word is "Blatantly Biased".

[brutus]

good discussion gentlemen and I look forward to seeing the remainder of it. Lets try to stay respectful of others opinions and we'll all live happily ever after. No need for rudeness or insults, we're all adults and we can conduct ourselves as such.

[Palma Wrestler]

good discussion gentlemen and I look forward to seeing the remainder of it. Lets try to stay respectful of others opinions and we'll all live happily ever after. No need for rudeness or insults, we're all adults and we can conduct ourselves as such.

Sorry, you are right. I didn't mean to get caught up in being rude.

[rivethead]

Lesnar/Mir proves my point. Leanar is nowhere as skilled as Mir on the ground but had Mazz not made that call I think its pretty safe to say Mir would've been out. He was dominating on pure strength and power, not technique.

If Lesnar was dominating at all, he was dominating with illegal blows to the back of the head. "If Mazz had not made that call" he would not have been doing his job...and I still don't think that Mir was ever really that hurt...he bounced right back with the sub and looked fine after the fight.

RivetHead, yes GSP doesn't naturally weigh 170 but how is that going against what I've said??? I said Kimbo weighing more is an advantage which it would be. Secondly, I'm not comparing GSP's and Kimbo's grappling skills because laying in Penn's full guard the whole fight isn't grappling its laying in someones full guard. Kimbo could just as well lay in Penn's full guard all night. In fact, if Bas showed Kimbo how to do a crucifix Penn wouldn't be going anywhere and would be getting smashed in the face all the while. Penn's proved he can't escape that, look at his second fight with Hughes, if Hughes small frame could hold down Penn and punch him in the face I'm sure Kimbo's frame could.

C'mon, you're just being silly and/or shifting your initial argument. You were all up in arms about your "facts" and I pointed out that your facts were wrong.

Now you've moved from comparing Kimbo to GSP to comparing him to Hughes...I don't have a problem with Kimbo, but you need to realize Kimbo has no grappling ability to speak of. He's a brawler, he's illustrated he's next to lost on the ground. He's got heart, he's got a great chin, he's got heavy hands; but even with Bas, his cardio is junk and his ground game is bad enough where James Thompson made him look bad.

"If Bas showed Kimbo how to do a crucifix" still has me puzzled. Wouldn't Bas need to show him how to shoot without eating repeated knees, how to take someone down who is rarely ever taken down, how to pass someone's guard who's guard is nearly unpassable, and then to manage a crucifix? Hughes, who has far better grappling than Kimbo will ever approach was able to manage a crucifix against Penn only as a result of a freak accident, and even then in the third round. I don't see Kimbo's cardio lasting 3 rounds chasing an elusive Penn and eating jabs enough to have him swallowing blood by the end of the second.

Yes, if Kimbo lands one clean shot, it would hurt Penn badly and potentially end the fight, but he's got about a 10% chance of landing a clean shot...as Faber stated.

I don't think I'm understating Penn's BJJ skill at all. I admitted that he's got great BJJ, but that he's not up there with a Marcelo Garcia or Maia etc, etc. If he fought either he'd lose IMO.

Guys, I'm really not trying to be an *******, but I just don't see the logic in most of the posts I've come across and if I have, they pretty much only helped prove my point.

Again, you're shifting here. You were talking about Royce as though he's a BJJ god, and he isn't. Either you know your history, or you don't. I'd respect you more if you just admitted you don't know what you're talking about.

Did I say he had absolutely no chance??? No, I said I'd heavily be leaning more towards Slice winning though. Maybe you should look back at my prior comments before you start assuming things. For the record, Mir wouldn't have won if Mazzagatti hadn't interupted, a couple more punches and he would've been out. I have a biased??? Maybe you haven't been looking at some of the other comments on here that a CLEARLY biased against Kimbo and aside from that, no matter how much of a prick I think Penn can be he's still in my top P4P. A flying armbar??? A flying heal hook??? When the **** was the last time Penn used any of those??? Hmmmmm.... we can imagine he'd do that all we want but until I've seen him even attempt it I'm rulling it out. Penn's BJJ is not Royce's in his prime. you bring up the Machida fight, if that had been Royce in his prime he would've been able to get Machida on the ground in spectacular fashion and probably come close to submitting him if not submitting him. As far as your whole little "Penn's gaurd has never been passed" spiel, so what??? Bigger guys don't need to pass a smaller mans guard to do damage, they can simply sit in full/half guard and punch your face in. I'm the biggest fan of Kid Yamamoto but even I know how to look at a fight realisticaly. If someone were to put him up against Lesnar I'd have no problem admitting that he most likely wouldn't come out on top. Its my ability to leave my bias on the wayside and look at a fight realisticaly that makes me differ from the majority people posting in this thread. Call me what you will, but biased is definitely not a characteristic that fits...

Again, I have to question whether you have any idea what you are talking about...Gracie hasn't got the credentials that Penn has, and the initial discussion was about MMA. Show me what Royce's BJJ tourney wins are that are as important as winning the Mundials, and then try to convince me that he's as comfortable staying in the pocket and getting hit like BJ.

As far as Lesnar/Mir, Lesnar was punching the back of his head, and he still didn't stun Mir enough to prevent Frank from submitting him. He scored a great shot against Herring in the first round, and then couldn't finish a half-blind opponent. He had dominant position and his wrestling bias is too strong for him to even approach putting hooks in and losing base, and so he clumsily rode him to a drawn out decision.

To go back to the initial argument, I agree, Penn has a 90% chance of beating Kimbo. Penn is faster, and a far better stiker than Kimbo is. Yes, Ferguson has heavier hands and more mass...but he's slower, he's not as accurate, his striking defense is basically taking shots as he looks to land a big looping counter...but Penn is more accurate, better defense, and is elusive enough to stay out of reach and pepper Kimbo with shots as Kimbo charges around the ring trying to land that one shot. Penn's smart enough to come in with both a great game plan and the means to execute it...Kimbo has a great coach, but is still a one-trick pony, and obviously has trouble executing Bas's plans as we saw against Thompson. Penn doesn't really have to worry about the shot or changing levels, he just has to stay elusive and pick his shots.

Would Penn stop him with either a KO or a sub? I think that's doubtful, but I think it's just as doubtful that Kimbo would actually land a shot clean enough to end the fight.

If you can't see the logic in any of these arguments, I'm probably going to have to put you on ignore. I've been patient this far because I'm new to this board, but I'm starting to doubt you know anything about what you're talking about.

rh

[LionHeartWarchild]

Palma: Wow, you have now absolutely no weight in this conversation...You don't even know what delegates bias and yet you're trying to label me one??? I'm biased because I'm a BJ fan yet I think he's a prick??? Hmmm...maybe you should just take a back seat and not speak anymore, you're clearly not that intellegent. By the way, me stating BJ would be beaten by guys like Maia proves my point about him not being a worlclass BJJ practitioner. Sure he's great at BJJ for MMA, but he couldn't compete at elite submission grappling tourneys like Abu Dhabi and still look as dominant. I gave Penn a 5-10% chance of winning a few pages back. If you're going to try to see you're way into a conversation you could at least read prior posts to have some knowledge...

RivetHead: Me bringing up GSP doesn't change my intial arguement at all,it confirms it. GSP was able to lay in BJ's full guard for 3 rounds without the threat of submission and hold him there purely on weight. This means that Kimbo's HW frame could do it as well. Laying in someone's full guard has nothing to do with grappling.

Overall, I think the majority of people are taking one aspect of Penn's game (BJJ) blowing it up and saying that's how he'd beat Kimbo. When you try to predict the outcome of any fight you need to take all aspects of the game into consideration, not just one. Whoever is more dominate in these areas is going to have a better chance of winning. It seems I'm the only one doing that. Who has the size advantage???Kimbo. Who has the strength advantage??? Kimbo. Who has the reach advantage??? Kimbo. Who has the BJJ avantage???Penn. Wow, Penn has one dominant attributte, by golly that means he's going to win! (Sarcasm). Even with Penn having the BJJ aspect won people are blowing his abilities out of the water by saying he'd pull off a flying armbar or healhook. Like I said before, he's never even made an attempt at these moves but people seem to have it engrained in their heads that that's how he would win. Its just outlandish. You don't see me saying "Kimbos going to go in there and spinning fist Penn with so much force he'll literally fly out of the cage!" why??? Because that's outlandish as well. The odds definitely favor Kimbo in in just about every aspect of the game and that's why I feel the way I do.

If you can't see that Slice dominantes more aspects of this game Rivethead, well your obviously in denial and don't know about MMA or fighting for that matter and should probably find your way over to Sherdog where that type of stupidity is encourage. Put me on ignore, I could careless.

Now this is all I really care to say on the subject, If some of you are too thickto see that the odds favor Slice I don't know what to tell you. I'm afraid that there are more are far more biased people who don't know how to way fight criteria on this board than I expected. Hopefully some of these new people can turn over a new leaf.

[rivethead]

RivetHead: Me bringing up GSP doesn't change my intial arguement at all,it confirms it. GSP was able to lay in BJ's full guard for 3 rounds without the threat of submission and hold him there purely on weight. This means that Kimbo's HW frame could do it as well. Laying in someone's full guard has nothing to do with grappling.

Again, you're overlooking the fact that he has to get Penn down before he can get into his guard for him to lay on him. How is Kimbo, a large, slow man with no shot to speak of supposed to get Penn down? Because he's big? Seriously, that's your argument?

Overall, I think the majority of people are taking one aspect of Penn's game (BJJ) blowing it up and saying that's how he'd beat Kimbo. When you try to predict the outcome of any fight you need to take all aspects of the game into consideration, not just one. Whoever is more dominate in these areas is going to have a better chance of winning. It seems I'm the only one doing that. Who has the size advantage???Kimbo. Who has the strength advantage??? Kimbo. Who has the reach advantage??? Kimbo. Who has the BJJ avantage???Penn. Wow, Penn has one dominant attributte, by golly that means he's going to win! (Sarcasm). Even with Penn having the BJJ aspect won people are blowing his abilities out of the water by saying he'd pull off a flying armbar or healhook. Like I said before, he's never even made an attempt at these moves but people seem to have it engrained in their heads that that's how he would win. Its just outlandish. You don't see me saying "Kimbos going to go in there and spinning fist Penn with so much force he'll literally fly out of the cage!" why??? Because that's outlandish as well. The odds definitely favor Kimbo in in just about every aspect of the game and that's why I feel the way I do.

By golly, you don't really know too much about MMA, do you?

here are a just few aspects of MMA you've conveniently overlooked:
Who has the takedown advantage? Penn
Who has the takedown defense advantage? Penn
Who has the striking accuracy advantage? Penn
Who has the striking defense advantage? Penn
Who has the advantage of transitions and changing levels? Penn
Who has better cardio and conditioning? Penn
Who is a faster, more elusive fighter? Penn
Who has the general MMA experience advantage? Penn

You are ignoring the fact that I've never said BJ would flying heel hook him, that he'd keep it standing and pepper Kimbo with shots while avoiding any damage.

If you can't see that Slice dominantes more aspects of this game Rivethead, well your obviously in denial and don't know about MMA or fighting for that matter and should probably find your way over to Sherdog where that type of stupidity is encourage. Put me on ignore, I could careless.

Now this is all I really care to say on the subject, If some of you are too thickto see that the odds favor Slice I don't know what to tell you. I'm afraid that there are more are far more biased people who don't know how to way fight criteria on this board than I expected. Hopefully some of these new people can turn over a new leaf.

That's one of the most unintentionally amusing things I've ever read on the internet. Someone who is simple enough to reduce MMA to just 4 things [Size, Strength, Reach and BJJ] calling me thick and saying I should go to Sherdog.

I might be an a-hole...in fact, I'm quite often an a-hole and I'm actually trying very hard to maintain good behavior here because I have tremendous respect for one of the supermoderators of this site who invited me here...but at least I can admit when I'm wrong--unlike you.

I'm sorry, but I can't find any reason to respect you. You don't make any points other than Kimbo is bigger, and you repeat them over and over again. I don't even think I'm one of the most knowledgable people I know...but I've forgotten more about MMA than you will ever comprehend--and that's including your vast experience holding down blackbelts and controlling them by understanding what they're going to try to do with you.

Ignoring you before you get Boo mad at me for calling you a ****ing idiot.

rh

Edit: Krazikarl, is that you?

[Palma Wrestler]

Palma: Wow, you have now absolutely no weight in this conversation...You don't even know what delegates bias and yet you're trying to label me one??? I'm biased because I'm a BJ fan yet I think he's a prick??? Hmmm...maybe you should just take a back seat and not speak anymore, you're clearly not that intellegent. By the way, me stating BJ would be beaten by guys like Maia proves my point about him not being a worlclass BJJ practitioner. Sure he's great at BJJ for MMA, but he couldn't compete at elite submission grappling tourneys like Abu Dhabi and still look as dominant. I gave Penn a 5-10% chance of winning a few pages back. If you're going to try to see you're way into a conversation you could at least read prior posts to have some knowledge...


Way to dodge every viable point I made... If I'm the one who looks so unintelligent then why is it I addressed every aspect of your post and you cannot directly address any of mine.

You do realize that Mundial World Championship is the most legitmate and founded tournament in all of sub-grappling and BJJ including ADCC? And you are aware that Penn ran through his division in 2001 and won the Mundials? I don't know what you have to do to be considered world class in your eyes, but winning a world championship is as world class as you can get. I mean Maia only won one Mundial world championship? What special criteria does Maia get that doesn't apply to Penn?

Also, "delgates biased" doesn't make gramatical sense... I want to talk "smart" maybe you shouldn't try and use phrases that you don't fully understand.

Attacking my intelligence, avoiding the point, and getting hung up on my opinion that you are biased doesn't really do anything other then further my point that you are talking out your ***.

Either make a solid point or move on... I'm tired of seeing you make a mess of yourself in this thread.